I have a question for all you experienced vetrans who have tried everything in relation to marketing! Maybe Ed Valentine or Doug or maybe Mr. Steamer....this would be a question for you guys.

I am considering hiring a sales person to bang on some doors. I am expanding to a new city and would like some advise on what to pay this guy. I am thinking along the lines of commission....but how much. We do residential carpet & upholstry/ceramic tile & grout/air exchange installation and cleaning/commercial carpet cleaning.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Most places pay 15% on the total amount of the contract... 3 to 5% on renewal....

anyone eles???

My advise is to hire people to do the work and you do your own sales, every job will be different and you are the one who needs to make on site desicions as to whether you want this job and how much you need to charge to make it profitable. I think anyone who has tried to hire a sales person has found it very expensive, with little in return, exceptions to this are the very large commercial carpet maintenance contractors in large urban centers that need the constant addition of new contracts or contact with present clients to upsell other services.

Thanks for the input. I am currently running one area myself including sales/marketing and most of the time cleaning as well. When we expand to this new city we will have 1 technician whom I have hired from another firm. The sales position will be responsible for marketing and keeping the phone ringing. He will do door to door...telemarketing....etc..etc....whatever it takes. So I guess he will be sales/estimator which I will train. Instead of wasting money on ads that yield no return,  I am putting my ad money in a person! Make sense?

Appreciate the input!

Cleaner1 Great Idea... a live person is the way to go...I hope the guy you hired is good... They all start off motivated with high energy, then they loose that drive quick.  You don't want to be saddled with dead weight(someone who is not producing).

if this guy is going to knock on doors in residential areas ...send him out with a small spotting unit and a spot kit... The best way to get your foot in the door is to do a few free spots...  This could work for commercial as well.

your business will only be as good as your sales person... and good sales people cost... and those that are really good leave and take all the accounts with them....lol

I hate to have the rug pulled from under me...  I want to do everything... me me me ... at least I can control what goes on...flyers give you that control... or a nice communication package

there is no "I" in team but there is one in wIn!!

The only thing is ... staffing the cleaning my ruin the business... good cleaners are hard to come by... say if you hired a "NO GOOD" the wrecks a few things... they could put you out of business.

I'm sorry I know business can not grow without hiring, but no one will ever do the sales and service as well as you can...

I'd give up the sales before I give up the service I think Don is wrong...  The most important thing is the customer that you actually get to clean..you want to make sure they are looked after properly... Employees don't care... if they wreck something you'll have to cover the cost..only the owner can ever truly go that extra mile

let me ask you one thing...

what can a sales man wreck????

anyone disagree???

I agree totally. That is why I'm trying this route. I also agree it is difficult to expand when you are a one man show. I have tried and failed with having someone else do the actual work. As you said....employee's don't care so don't give them the opportunity to screw it up for you. Stay on the wand as long as possilbe and do your training yourself.....also do some follow up on your own every once in a while to make sure customers are happy. The new sales person will be doing follow-up daily.

I was wondering Mr. Steamer, what would you think it should be worth to pay this guy to start. He is fairly young and energetic....right now anyway.....we'll see what happens.....but I want to pay him well enough to stick around. He is very interested in learning the business and I will probably have him estimating later on? What should I pay him?

Cleaner1;

IMHO, I do not think that hiring a sales person will achieve your goal because I believe that whoever this person may be, he/she will quickly get discouraged and leave.

I think a much better way is for you to "Lateral Sell". This involves convincing others in the service trades (ex: Interior designers; Carpet/Furniture Stores;etc..., local Country Clubs, etc..) to recommend you and your company. My own experience doing this in the past has been a terrific success and increase in business. It builds a terrific reputation way before you ever arrive at the door step. And, that helps to build customer confidence.

There are other ways of getting the business that I have learned to. Tune into: http://www.members3.boardhost.com/johnmmerritt/ - www.members3.boardhost.com/johnmmerritt/   and look under Archives. Download.

Hope this helps;

Ed valentine

http://www.cross-american.com - www.cross-american.com

THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING MR. VALENTINE. IT SEEMS LIKE YOU HAVE ALOT OF EXPERIENCE IN THIS AREA. I HAVE READ YOUR POSTS AND CHECKED OUT SOME OF YOUR INFO AT OTHER SITES. MY QUESTION IS HOW ODES ONE FIND THE TIME TO DO EVERYTHING....CLEAN....MARKET..SELL.......INVOICE....BOOK JOBS....ETC....ETC...ETC... I AM ONLY ONE PERSON AND I FEEL....AS MR. STEAMER ALREADY STATED.....IF I AM GOING TO GIVE UP ANYTHING TO SOMEONE ELSE ITS THE SALES SIDE. HIRING SOMEONE WITH PROVEN SALES ABILITY. DO YOU AGREE?

HOW WOULD ONE GET THE TIME TO DO ALL THIS STUFF AND STILL FOLLOW UP WITH CUSTOMER,DO THE BALLOT BOX THING,PRINT AND DELVER ALL THE BROCHURES...ETC ETC.....

LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK AS I REALLY VALUE YOUR OPINION

Cleaner1;

Ultimately, someday, perhaps your goal will not to be on the truck(s), rather doing the necessary sales and follow-up work.

When I was cleaning, I had to mesh both cleaning and sales into my day when I first got started. Then, after I acquired more and more jobs to keep the first truck going, I purchased another truck for myself, and continued to do the samething until that one was needed full time. And, so on, until I had 11 trucks going.

The absolute BEST salesman in the world is the owner operator because his drive, and sincerity to help always shows to the potential customer and never goes away.

Pay your techs well, and unleash yourself and go get the business! Believe me, it is not as complicated as  you may think once you organize yourself.

Good Fortune to your business success;

Ed Valentine

"YOUR SILENT PARTNER"

Danmark. let me know when it is ready. I'd like to try it out.

Ed.....thanks for the advise....I do plan to run multiple trucks one day.....for now one TM and one porty.....see what happens.....but I'm still confused and a little unsure where we went with this......should I hire the sales person? Sorry if I'm being a little "thick headed" but I'm unsure as to the end results. If I am busy cleaning and marketing/sales...etc.etc. in my area...who is going to do the job in the new area if I dont hire someone?

Your response is greatly appreciated.

Cleaner1;

I apologize if I did not make myself clear. Sometimes those like myself, who have the experience are sometimes the worst explainers because we tend to take what we are saying forgranted. Sorry..

I have to make the assumption that you have one truck (?). Work that truck; but sell in-between your jobs whenever you can. Once you become so busy "working" (cleaning jobs); hire a tech to run that truck full-time, and put on another truck--part-time---and keep on selling in-between jobs. Once you build up the business for that truck, hire a tech and so on and so forth.

Do not make it complicated because it is not.

Good Fortune;

Ed valentine

Cleaner1... I look at it this way.... what is your business... to clean carpets properly....it's the dirty part of the job that no one wants..... they never remember the sales person they remember the dude with the wand and how good a job he did.

Like I said do good work first and the sales will come... some customers will give a testimonial.... some will give your referals.... some will champion your cause

The reason why a lot of Carpet Cleaning Companies fail... the owner wants to be a pen pusher and not a wand pusher...

The work you provide in the house will be your greatest asset... it'll come a time that you won't need a sales person because the reputation of quality work will precede you...

Plus think of all the money in repairs on the truck you'll save if you run it and not some Joe buddy employee...

Hire the sales man....To start I pay him 15%... plus gas mileage.... give him a cell phone and a daytimer and send him on his merry way... maybe even his own desk with his name on it...  your job is to clean and keep the salesman motivated..happy sales man means more sales

sorry for the long post...  I've lived this and I'm living it and I will live it again

Cleaner 1

You are the company, nobody better than you to be the sales/marketing person, your goal should be to hire and train good tech's and free up yourself to do all the other things necessary to grow your business. In my case I stayed on the truck a way to long, not that our business suffered it is exactly where we want it, but if you have aspirations of multiple crews and trucks on the road than you need to get off the truck and doing all the administration things necessary to get to that point.

That is my opinion!

Great lots of sales.... no good work... your company is in the crapper...

Don you might be one of the lucky ones good help is VERY VERY hard to find... CC'ing isn't an easy job.... it's back breaking and it can cost a company a lot of money in screw ups..... and in truck repairs...

Yes looking towards a multi truck operation is great but all you have right now is one truck and thats where you should be on that one truck....

I guess I'm used to being involved with bigger organizations operations that book 30 to 100 calls a day... I know the problems with techs and equipment... I also know how long it takes before you get a bad rep..all the while the owners in the office...he's dying inside as his business goes down becasue of poor workmanship...

People want personal service.... they want to know who's coming to the door... unless your catering to a population of over a million one truck should do just fine with you on it...and someone else pushing the sales.

A good sales man a dime a dozen

A good cleaner priceless

Well than until you make a decision as to which way you want to go it is silly for us to be giving you advise.

Owner operator, does not need a sales person, do as Steamer says "Do great work and your clients will build your business for you" REPEAT- REFERRALS THE LIFE BLOOD OF A OWNER OPERATORS BUSINESS

Multiple truck business needs a sales oriented  approach, and less concerns for high quality workmanship, simply because it will be hard to achieve with most employees you will be able to hire.

The decision is yours!

Hire to your strengths, not your weakness.  If you are a great cleaner you will be able to train and supervise that cleaner better than if you were not a great cleaner.  You will quickly recognize bad habits and techniques before much damage is done. Clone yourself.

If you are not a good salesperson you will make a poor supervisor or trainer for a hired salesperson. You will be slow to recognize and correct expensive bad habits and presentations of that salesperson.  A train wreck you will never see coming until you do the autopsy on the experiment.

Better to make it your First Priority to "become" salesman #1 in your business.  Make over the entire buying experience that your clients have with your company, before, during, after each job. Never take off your marketing hat.  You will lose control of the direction of your company if you do.  Employees are "rented".  A rented salesman going on to greener pastures is darn near inevitable.  He will then do you more grief than any former cleaning technician.

I've been there.  If you don't believe me, go ahead.  Twenty years from now you can give my speech to younger newbies.

I'll be happy to help!

Thanks,

Lee

I think all the advise is good... it's not a text book situation... I seen it first hand myself... either or is good...

just because someone has been there done that, doesn't mean it'll happen the same way everytime....

age is not wisdom... just remember that...  It's your vision, and only you can make it happen... with hard work and determination anything is possible...

people say impossible...but you work to make it possible

If you listen to everyone you'll get no where... sit down draw up a business plan and go for it...

focus grasshopper

OK

Let's hear from any established firm who hired a salesperson as one of the first employees, and had that turn into a winning proposition that lasted at least one year?

Talk is cheap

Then can you spare a few words?

I could care less about winning an internet p-ing match, but many times I've seen a newbie get sold a bill of goods, either being convinced to buy a machine that the crowd cheers about (but doesn't own) or convinced to take a course of action that wastes scarce resources (and that the advice-givers haven't done successfully either).

I've seen many a young couple persuaded to buy that biggest YP ad, buy various expensive office gizmos, get saddled with crushing lease payments.....and then crash and burn.  That's real people with kids and dreams crushed.  Three of my married sons have their own truckmounts, and no payments. They have bought their homes.  When I see a young guy coming to the boards to get advice I see my kids' faces.  It pisses me off to see them get crappy advice from people who should know better.

Carry on....

Thanks,

Lee

Who's pissing Lee...... not one piece of bad information came from any one of MY POSTS.

The most important part of carpet cleaning is.. the carpet cleaning...

My father Owns a small Bottled beverage factory that employes around 30 people, HE HAS NEVER allowed anyone to mix the ingredients to his product.  Why??? because thats the most important part of his sucess and he has to make sure it is done properly...

My father the man that taught me everything I know about business would say"if the product is no good... no sales" and thats why he will always and forever mix the ingredients for his juices...

He can sell to but he leaves that to the sales people....he says it's easy to sell a good quality product and he's right..

If you want to flame me... please use direct quotes from my posts... I did not tell anyone to buy a page in the yellowpages or get any fancy dancy programs, or a platinum Vortex.

all I said was hire a sales man...and do the cleaning himself.... maybe later that can change  but at first you want the best out on the road to service the customers.

If I have given any bad information I will never post here again

Lee Stockwell wrote: OK   Let's hear from any established firm who hired a salesperson as one of the first employees, and had that turn into a winning proposition that lasted at least one year?

but you don't know him so whats the difference... like I said talk is cheap

You can tell a loser when he replies to his own posts.  Mr. Steamer since Doug has left you are the biggest idiot on this board. Remember you can give no advice.  Your a Sears Bitch.

It's funny having conversations with so many hiding behind aliases, maybe I'll get used to it.  My son-in-law is from Orillia ON so I know it's not a "Canadian thing".

Mr Steamer, why did you choose not to join your father's firm?

BTW I don't believe my comments were particularly aimed at your posts, but to "advisors" in general.

Thanks, Lee

I was never "mad", just annoyed at the ease with which otherwise intelligent adults seem to degenerate to Jr HS level when behind a mask.

This is the first internet forum I've participated in that has near total anonymity of the posting body.  I participated on Cleanfax from the beginning in '98 and was one of the organizers of Summerfest from '99 on where real people got together and made a difference.  Just about everybody used their real names unless they had something to hide.  Just what I'd expect from a professional forum. 

I abhor "bogus posters" and cowards who can freely attack from behind a mask, and if they choose, can slink into the dark and change identities.  If this forum's profile section had spaces for more info, I would give it, as it is on ICS, Cleanfax, and CCS boards.  I'm real, warts and all.  My business is real.  My track record is real. I've had the same business phone number for 34 years. (270)-753-5827  If your caller Id is blocked, leave a message.  Otherwise I'll pick up and talk (I don't care for anon callers either you've noticed?).

Thanks,

Lee Stockwell

Lee's Carpet Cleaning, Murray KY 42071

Thanks Mr. Steamer for the post about the cleaner with the slaes person in GTA ( Grandmother's touch) This is the information I was looking for. I am convinced this system of a sales person on the road with proven sales ability will work. I am glad to hear someone has actually tried it. I have been struggling with this for a while.

I use to work for the competition as well and my previous boss use to do all the sales and marketing himself....but he had the best cleaners in the city....in business 25 years and a good guy to work for too. This method worked well for him...but if your strenghts are in cleaning and not in sales then why not hire a GOOD....and I stress GOOD....sales person to do the ground work.

Later on I will hire/train another technician and so on. maybe I'll get on the road doing sales when I feel comfortable enough with my technician's. In the area we work in now, I have been doing the work for along time and my customers expect to get me...but that will change as time goes on....I will gradually phase out of cleaning and put my new guy in that position as well.

Remember, we are expaning to a new area....hard to be in two places at once...so that's why the salesmen.

Lee, I appreciate your input. How many different sales people have worked for you in the past? And how long were they with you? Did they actually know the cleaning business or were they just slaes people trying to get to know your business?

Just some questions. I appreciate everyone's input here

LEE I'm not hiding ... my companies trade mark is Mr.STEAMER.  So what if someones behind a mask or not... I don't know LEE STOCKWELL more than I know a SUCTION.... Just because you use an alias that doesn't discredit your information....

no on has to post anything here, we are not paid... so just go with the flow like dan said you have to weed through.

As for your question why don't I work with my father??? I wanted something on my own.  He was the one that gave me my first van to put my unit it. I'm not his shadow I'm his son.

Actually Lee it's better when you use Alias' so your feelings won't get hurt, like I guess yours where.

to Waldo... you are plain and simple just a fool, no need to explain anything to you.

The Duke of Earl

I wear Stainfield Boxer Briefs

I use Dove body wash gel

and I love the feel of cottonelle toiletpaper on my backside I've been using them for 34 years

I guess thats too much info

Fuuny thing is Lee is very real... Just enter his name in your search engine he is every where.. look I found his pic... 

Here he is again...  The man is a spot cleaning Champ... but just because you're a somebody and Mr Steamer is a nobody doesn't mean his information is wrong..  I still stand by what I said...

champ

I can tell anyone that Lee Stockwell is real. "REAL GOOD" too.

I have met him personally and have spoken with this knowledgable gentleman on many occassions. very, very sincere and always willing to help anyone.

Steamer, I do consider us friends, and always will. However, I do have a little difference of opinion on one very important aspect of your thinking. You insist that "age" and/or "experience" is not relative whenever one whom has been involved in an Industry trys to give advice to others in order to help them avoid the pitfalls. Yet, on the other hand, with great pride, you use your Dad's experience as an example to others. I think this seems to be a conflict of reasoning, don't you?

I think from what you have stated, your Dad certainly knows his business and how to successully operate it because of his EXPERIENCE .

Never forget that "GOOD JUDGMENT COMES FROM EXPERIENCE---and alot of that comes from bad judgement!"

Good Fortune to all;

Ed Valentine

http://www.cross-american.com - www.cross-american.com  

The group pic from Summerfest6 in Knoxville is a group of very good guys from all over.

from L Jaime Coehlo from MA,  Steven L Smith from TN, Jeff Cross from Cleanfax, Rick Gelinas from FL, Me (sans crutches!), Wayne Miller from MD,  Gary Hea*ock from OR, Larry Capitoni, and Bud Nutter both from Ohio.  If you don't get to know each one of them you are really missing something, good friends just a ring away.  Many of the brightest in the industry.

*ocky?  That's funny.  You sure don't know me.

Thanks,

Lee

ps. Thanks Ed, I wish more would take the opportunity to swing by Ann Arbor.

I haven't had the pleasure of personally meeting Lee, but I will say he is one of the MOST knowledgable people in our industry. He's head and shoulders above a lot of us in experience and intelligent advice in this business. And above all, Lee is a gentleman who treats others with class and a genuine desire to help. I can say the advice he offers is based on sound experience, not a hit and miss approach. The same goes for Ed Valentine- both of these men are very free with advice and help. If the industry was as classy as these two gents......

(BTW- Ted's a good egg too!)

The auto edit function here is interesting.  Big brother is alive and well, protecting us from ourselves...lol

Change your name Gary, it offends the machine.  Actually Gary (I call him Mr) Heac...(I'll spare the machine) only recently retired after cleaning since 1955.  Truely one of the GURUs of the industry, and sceduled to be host of Summerfest #7 next September in Portland OR.  He never fails to give friendly, accurate and innovative help to the industry when asked.

Thanks,

Lee

Here we are back to Gunky Cleaning again.  Who really wants to tell their mother in Law they do cleaning or sell cleaning. (Noooo Body)  Now cleaning or selling carpet cleaning is not that bad a job, but today younger generations for that matter fine a stigma attached to it.  Now if you find that Super Sales Man we are all looking for who is soooo good, then why is he not selling computers etc. get the point? If he is this good and works for you, he will sooner or later steal your customers and employees.  It just seems to be the way it is time after time.

This appears to give me my answers why most carpet cleaning companies can't sustain growth.  The only way this could change would be if the investment to go into the carpet cleaning business were to be out of our reach of the unemployed.  The demand for less expensive cleaning equipment is now allowing welfare recipients to get into our industry. The biggest hardship is most carpet cleaners want to stay a one man operation until they find they are 45 or 50 years old and can no longer clean and then have nothing to sell.  Cheer up you could have been a coal miner.

After making my last post and thinking about it I would like to make sure I have not discouraged any one who is full of Piss & Vinegar and starting out making their mark in life.  Sometimes taking advise from an old fart can save you a lot of money and aggravation, but sometimes old farts show a little cynicism as they have been through some serious wars and been scared and screwed over by many including their salesman and cleaners.

Go with your gut feeling.

THANKS FOR THAT TED. I AGREE. ALOT OF OLD CELANERS HAVE BEEN SCREWED OVER BEFORE....INCLUDING ME....SO SOMETIMES WE ARE A LITTLE "GUN SHY" ....IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.......WE GET BURIED IN THE DAY TO DAY AND DONT TAKE A STEP BACK TO SEE WHAT IT TAKES TO GROW!!

ALSO, JUST BECAUSE ONE TIME YOU HIRE SOMEONE AND IT DOESN'T WORK OUT DOES THIS MEAN WE STOP TRYING?

IF I DID THAT I WOULDNT BE ON THIS BOARD TALKING ABOUT IT. EVERYONE KNOWS THE SECRET TO SUCESS AS MR. VALENTINE SAYS IS PERSISTANCE PEOPLE........PERSISTANCE....DID I QUOTE THE RIGHT GUY? MAYBE IT WAS STEMAER THAT SAID THIS.....ANYWAY IT DOESN'T MATTER...WHOEVER SAID IT WAS RIGHT AND I AGREE WITH TED...GO WITH YOUR GUT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS....I'LL LET YOU ALL KNOW HOW IT WORKS OUT.

Go get'em, Cleaner1 ! And, the very best to your future too.

To emphasize a small part of Ted's advice regarding this Profession is this:

Always keep in mind that YOU choose this profession so therefore, be very proud of it and your honest goals to build your own business. This is something that I have never forgotten because when we are proud of what we do, this will radiate to our customers and friends in a very positive way.

Everyone like a winner. Be one.

Good Fortune to all;

Ed Valentine

http://www.cross-american.com - www.cross-american.com

Well done Cleaner1... only you can make it happen. 

It was sure a love-in in this thread all blowing sunshine up the others butt...

I own 2 trucks no payments... I have a 500 psi portable...I have duct cleaning equipment.....I live in a nice house... I have everything I need except that 72" big screen. I started with a rag and a bottle of windex....nothing was handed to me.  I have high speed internet....

I think I have made it... and it all came from the sweat off my brow...

Most of you laugh at my subbing...I've made money at subbing... you laugh at my ad...my ad has covered itself.... you laugh at my ability..I'm more able than most...

so there you go cleaner1 it just goes to show you that you can't listen to anyone but yourself....

You don't have to apologize Earl.  However you may someday realize that "...you can't listen to anyone but yourself..." was not the best mantra of life.

I'd suggest keeping your ears eyes and mind open.  We learn new things every day, and interchanges like this forum have only accelerated that.  Listen to everything with an intelligent critical ear.  If I understand your perspective in this thread correctly I'd say we agree "each person is responsible for his own decisions".

To borrow a metaphor from your family's bottling biz, my dad used to say "the bottleneck is always at the top", which came from his service in Korea dealing with snafu's from bad decisions.  If we own a biz, we are personally responsible for everything that happens at our firm.  We can't blame it on techs, salespeople, or the economy.  If there's a problem, it's us.

Thanks,

Lee