Berberbob,

I see you hanging in with one post back on Dec 10 2004.

I think royaltouch on Feb 7 2005 made the most sense out of winter slowdown I have heard yet.

royaltouch wrote: Hi All, Found this online... seemed an interesting read. More of a game plan. May help in planning your marketing.   Now, plan the entire year The following is a simple guideline of what a successful carpet and furniture cleaning company can follow, utilizing the above information. If the seasonality does not match up for your area you should adjust the timing. January This is the dead of winter and most people are not thinking of carpet cleaning because they don’t want to leave their door open and there is a lot of winter soil still to be tracked into the house. Think about a special on upholstery cleaning or air duct cleaning. January is also a great time to “fill your pipeline”. Line up work for spring. Try making those personal sales calls in commercial areas. If they are not ready for cleaning right now, get permission to call in March. A newsletter this time of year might contain an offer to pre-book their spring cleaning. Mention that spring gets very busy for you, so pre-booking is a good idea. If they would like to beat the spring rush they can save 20 percent (you have to choose the actual discount) by cleaning in January or February. February The same activities as January should work well. Consider a post card to previous customers restating your January offers. March This is the month that you have to get them thinking about spring cleaning. Be sure to contact all of your referral sources — your Realtors, carpet retailers, etc. Their customers will be asking them to refer someone good to clean for them. A special early spring offer to your referral sources could get you some early business and assure that they will remember you when their customers ask. You should send out a direct mail piece to your target market areas and your previous customers. This can be a newsletter or a personalized letter with an accompanying brochure. Be sure that you list all of the services that you offer. April You should be very busy now, but don’t let that stop your marketing effort. The most important thing when you are busy is to make sure that your technicians are well-trained and have an incentive to do add-on sales. Be sure that they are doing their “5-arounds” so that they can maximize your marketing effort. They have to bring in every possible dollar from every job. April is a great month to send a post card to previous customers with a special and a referral offer. “Dear Customer, did you know that you can earn free cleaning when you refer us to your friends and neighbors?” May This should be about the height of spring cleaning. Focus on your referral sources. A post card reminding your previous customers to clean now before they get too busy this summer would be in order. “Let us help you clean up the interior of your home this spring before you get busy with gardening, golf, boating and all those other summer activities”. A Mother’s Day special is very much in order. June How about a Father’s Day special? “Give your husband the gift of clean carpet for Father’s Day. He won’t notice, but it will make you feel better.” This should be a newsletter or target letter month. Summer is a great time to clean, and you can tout “quick drying, long days and great cleaning specials”. July Offer a two-service special. For instance, “Have your carpet cleaned and get 20 percent off any upholstery or tile floor cleaning.” Many families are on vacation in July, but a well-thought-out special offering will keep you busy. August Either they are on vacation or winding down from vacation. Send a post card: “You are busy with your end-of-summer activities. Make time for cleaning and we will make it worth your while.” September Fall is big for cleaning. This should be a newsletter month. Offer back-to-school specials and maybe a “beat the holiday rush” offer. Hit your referral sources very hard this month. They will have a lot of requests for cleaning between now and Christmas. October Post cards like the following do well in October: “Colors change in the fall. Let us change your carpet to the color it used to be.” Give them an incentive they can’t refuse. November You are no doubt in a busy season, but don’t lose touch. Send out another post card like this: “We are thankful for our customers. We would like to show our gratitude by offering…” December This is the final push of the year before things get slow. Get a post card out early or take the month off from mailing. Once the Christmas tree goes up people don’t usually think much about cleaning. This is a great time to visit your referral sources with gifts to build the relationships for next year.

And nightrider offers absolutely free marketing tips simply by emailing him.

All I have to say is that Immitation is the most flattering gesture next to creativity, in other words, if something works for someone else, given the same conditions if will work for you too........If we all bought stock when Bill Gates started Microsoft..........guess what........we would all be equally as rich.........don't try to re-invent the wheel, just copy it or immitate it make it just as round and function in the same manner and you know what..........people will buy it.........why........'cause they need one.

                              Nightrider

been an unusually busy winter here

had a slow week when it was -35 but that was it

The last two weeks weren't bad here... but this week sucks...

I urge people to e-mail nightrider... I think his Ideas are hot... he should be charging...

I already started to put something toghether

Get into commercial carpet maintenance programs and you will never again need to worry about the winter slow down.

Advantages include 12 equal billings a year, cash flow that is consistant, easy to do, can be done with part time staff, low equipment investment.

Downside is it is night or weekend work, can be boring clean, "clean"carpet all the time. Staff needs regular insurance that they are doing a great job.

Try it your bank account will love it.

Cleanex.......You are 100% on the money........That is the only way to go.........even if you just get little offices to clean, it's fast maybe 2 hours starting after 5 pm, and it pays well, then you get all the extras as they come up, Wallpapering, painting, windows, etc etc. I had a meeting yesterday with a company where the contract will be in the 15,000 dollar a month area, 4 employees per night 7 nights a week cleaning the conveyors for the cake and cookie production line plus offices.......it's the only way to go.

                                 Nightrider

Yes commercial is the way once you get those contracts for regular maintenance you always have steady work...  But here in the GTA Mainline and ServiceMaster have anything good all tied up...

It's hard to beat those prices... they work cheap

Have more confidence Steamer, I just took 3 contracts away from Servicemaster in the Cornwall area just last week.........Maintenance is not carpet cleaning.................price does not dictate who gets the contract..........they like to see results for their buck......and the corners better be clean, and the dust over the door jams had better not appear on their white rag when they do their inspection...............

                              Nightrider

Good selling nightrider. Cleanx great info above. This unit can keep you busy during the slow season. I have a similar one and i was busy when i turned it on during the winter months, even when there was 3 feet of snow. There are Fed & State laws to follow. No call list, registeration, fees etc.

Just a thought. It's up to you. Good luck buddy.

http://www.lawicka.com/ - http://www.lawicka.com/

John...........What the heck are you talking about........Fed & State laws regarding what exactly, what NO CALL list, what Registration, what Fees, what Etc Etc............Please be more informative...........give prime examples of what you're talking about, type a little more...........don't worry your fingers won't fall off.

                             Nightrider

Hi All,

Let's make one thing perfedtly clear an Marketing before we get in too deep!

There's only one sure thing that works in Marketing...."ACTION"

Creating a novel new way to be seen or heard is one thing...putting it into action is a whole 'nother ballgame. I know people in different industries that would astonish most of us with great ideas...the problem is that they never run with the ball. Therefore nothing changes.

Change is the result of action. Do yourself a service. Create a modest marketing plan...and I do mean modest...and get it up and running.

Flyers, Fridge Magnet giveaways, Fridge Calendars (I like this one), keychain, mini flashlight, all of course with your company name on it.

Here's something I'll be handing out at a local Supermarkets Sat. & Sun. mornings.

Like Nike says "Just do It".

I created this business card online. The cost for 1000 heavy stock 4 colour with glossy finish...about $25 Can...shipped to my door!...shipping included!

I know...where?...http://www.vistaprint.com

Hey if you're not good at designing something...I might help.

Remember......ACTION!

regards,

royaltouch

Opps....darn sample pic didn't show up...you can see it here

http://us.f3.yahoofs.com/users/420b782azeab31f98/611c/__sr_/9343.jpg?phm83CCBLcTZKkHQ - http://us.f3.yahoofs.com/users/420b782azeab31f98/611c/__sr_/ 9343.jpg?phm83CCBLcTZKkHQ

hope that works.

regards,

royaltouch

yep it works.

NOTHING WORKS  Royal Touch..........I guess there goes all your wisdom, you should take your own advice " Just Do It " But you didn't, and perhaps you shouldn't. By the way while you're at the Supermarket Saturday and Sunday ........can you pick me me up some milk and bread.

                             nightrider

Hi All,

Nothing works!...please........and get your own milk and bread.

regards,

royaltouch

Hey Royal .............you can't even be relied on to get milk and bread how can anyone rely on your marketing plans.........JUST DO IT.........Get me some milk and bread.

                            Nightrider

Just proves that if the best marketing plan never gets delivered, it becomes a costly mistake.  I have made many of them in my life.

I always remember when my kids were small I had them deliver flyer's for me even though I never had returns expected. I kept it up month after month like the marketing experts suggested. When I moved from my house years later. I went to take the last look and thought I should check out the door to the attic. Guess What!! Thousand of undelivered flyer's.

An absolutely true story. 

Somethings move like hot bread and somethings don't... they just get mouldy like Ted's flyers in the attic..

I've been working with the big guys for a long time.. and I can tell you Advertising works...  I would say 50% of all calls came from direct mail... a bismal 7% from telemarketing, 15% from the yellow pages...the other 28% came from Name recognition....

They spend the money to get their foot in the door, then they let the dogs out.  They never make money on whats booked.  All the profit comes from the Upsells or pressure sales.

50% upsell or your FIRED!

but I know for a fact that advertising works.. I've seen it and lived it...

we are all broke dics in this business, to service 500,000 homes you should have a working capital of at least 100,000 revolving credit...

it takes money to make money... most of us only have 5 to 10 grand, let me tell y'all something thats a weekend at Bernies

Ted, I can bet you that your kids now work for Canada Post.........at least they're consistant.

                           Nightrider

Ted,

Great story...LOL

And nightrider...you delivered my pizza late...do I get it free???

And while your at it nightrider do you mind calling Sears and the Bay, maybe tell them all about how "nothing works", that they should all stop with the flyers, clean carpets like crazy in the summer, buy car and deliver pizza in the winter.

What are those guys thinking! Flyers! sheesh...what'll they think of next!

regards,

royaltouch

I was a paper boy.... I had oneside of the garage filled with papers..

my dad had to call a dumpster... I told him it was the extras... But he knew.. I got the strap...  I think I quite a few weeks later... doing 200 homes wasn't easy

Steamer, I would have to disagree with you on your stats, you claim 7% Telemarketing.......AT&T generate a ratio of 82% of upgrads to their service from telemarketing, Rogers boasts 92% for upgrads and 87% for new customers, Bell put a claim of 97% for add ons such as conference calling, bell answer, etc etc, due to telemarketing, Sears extended warranty totally depends on telemarketing and lives by a 99% and only 1% at time when item purchased, Sears carpet cleaning in Montreal would not be in business without it, 2% flyers,7 % store advertising, 78% telemarketing, 3% word of mouth, 1% truck lettering , 9% other media. I can go on and on and on........Invite me to your office for the day in the spring or summer and I'll show you that your stats don't hold water. Especially the Direct Mail crap......and Yellow pages only 15% never that number has to be much higher........Can you tell me where you picked those stats up.

                              Nightrider

Royal.........I owe you a pizza.........Just because Sears, The Bay and others send out flyers don't be confused with what works and what doesn't...........flyers will bring you a 1% to 1.5% response ratio, only because of the price factor that is printed on the flyers.......after the call from the customers certain info which is misleading comes to clairity and appointments are cancelled, they actually depend on telemarketing customers that they have cleaned during the past 5 years. I'm not saying flyers are useless, it's good to always be in the face of your customers.......but if you try it you will realize.........IT DOES NOT WORK, as far as making money to generate a living............when you have alot of capitol behind you you can hire a plane with your company banner flying 800 feet in the air, but IT WON"T WORK.

                            NIGHTRIDER 

I have all the stats for the top fortune 500 companies in Canada and the States......................They all make money because of telemarketing and depend on it for longivity 100%. Telemarketing is a Multi BILLION Dollar business year after year whether it's in call or out call media........it's the number one source of new client resource medium.........ever wonder why all consumer products have an 800 number for you to call from a can of beans to a $300.00 computer software item........reason is now they can call you even though you are on the NO CALL LIST because the law dictates that if you have done business with the person in the past the NO CALL LIST is void.................I don't like telemarketers calling me either.............BUT IT'S THE ONLY MEDIA THAT BRINGS RESULTS AND IS COST EFFICIENT, THAT FLYER CAN'T TALK TO THE COSTOMER LIKE A HUMAN VOICE CAN.

                               NIGHTRIDER

Just get one of these. While your out doing a great cleaning job these babys will make 2000 + calls a day. Leads turn into sales.

http://lawicka.com/ - http://lawicka.com/

http://www.nextcenturytalk.com/ - http://www.nextcenturytalk.com/

1986 Model and it still works!! Uses cassettes for outgoing message and incoming. Anyone want to buy it?

http://pictures.sprintpcs.com/share.jsp?invite=EETm7o8mY57Mr7W77koh&shareName=Photo - http://pictures.sprintpcs.com/share.jsp?invite=EETm7o8mY57Mr 7W77koh&shareName=Photo

nightrider wrote: Cleanex.......You are 100% on the money........That is the only way to go.........even if you just get little offices to clean, it's fast maybe 2 hours starting after 5 pm, and it pays well, then you get all the extras as they come up, Wallpapering, painting, windows, etc etc. I had a meeting yesterday with a company where the contract will be in the 15,000 dollar a month area, 4 employees per night 7 nights a week cleaning the conveyors for the cake and cookie production line plus offices.......it's the only way to go.                                  Nightrider

If you get the cookie factory to clean consider a steamer. Now that's not our buddy Steamer but an http://www.kleenkuip.com/products/amerivap-commercial.htm - Amerivap Steamer to cut the sugar soil. We have sold a few to bakery's. They love them for cleaning into tight corners.

nightrider,

When I worked for Dow Chemical many years ago one of my marketing products was the popcorn type styrofoam for insulation. Some entrepreneurial guy came out with a much cheaper product for insulation and it actually WAS popcorn.

I first said to myself I could have done that. Now the first few people who tried it quickly became mouse and rat infested. So the great ideas for mice & men don't always work.

Ted, I like that post about the popcorn..........but what I would have done is tumble the popcorn in a cement mixer and spray mice and rat poison on it but not enough to saturate.....then the mice and rats can enjoy themselves, then I would quickly register an extermination company to remove dead rodent from between the walls............Ted who knows what the nose knows..........everything is trial and error.......I have over 25 years experience in marketing and have seen and heard most of the wise tales, what works today might not work tomorrow. You don't hear pepsident saying " you wonder where the yellow went " anylonger......cause it wouldn't work today.

                                 Nightrider

Regarding the Amervap Steamer............I am in the process of putting in an  order for 2 machines directly with Andy at Therma-Kleen regarding their large model stainless steamer........check it out at Therma-kleen.com

They are always looking for distributors in Canada, Tell him that you spoke to me and see what he can do for you.

                            Nightrider

Surroundings, the " IN Call " part of telemarketing for the carpet cleaning trade is a little tricky, and requires some distasteful concepts. I'll give you an example of what I did that got me into a little trouble in the past....we have a company here that distributes store flyers, carpet cleaning, flea markets, etc etc. what I did was take out a ad on the cover envelope inviting people who want to make extra income working from home and requested them to hear a 3 minute recorded message @ $4.00 per minute through a 900 number, I made quite a bit of money before Bell received so many complaints that they cancelled the number.

                           Nightrider

" No CALL" list means nothing at all, it does not include Banks, Surveys, Bell Canada, Visa, Mastercard, Charity, and the list goes on, and the best of all, any and all companies that have done business with you in the past or info that you requested from ( and forgot) I also have a legal loop-hole for all those who file onto the list. The government made these loop-holes on purpose 'cause they know the kind of employment Telemarketing generates and the taxes that in brings in.

                            Nightrider

Nightrider...

Thanks for the free pizza...a man of his words.

And in reference to: "The government made these loop-holes on purpose 'cause they know the kind of employment Telemarketing generates and the taxes that in brings in."

You hit the nail smack on the head with that one.

Quite a few years ago I was going through a re-training program (downsizing and all)...the interview with some gal at UI was amazingly stupid...God! she went on and on and on...'till I finally told her...this is nothing but a program to get me to pay more taxes...so get on with it and get me in the next program. The next day I was in.

regards,

royaltouch

And now you're a carpet cleaner, who would have known, and you're still paying taxes, except now you pay taxes on what you decide you pay taxes on.........CASH IS KING.........If the government can squander hundreds of millions of dollars on stupity, then they won't miss what I don't send them

                                 Nightrider

Only if they catch you Doug........they give all non taxpayers a long leash, that way it keeps their inspectors working.........

                         Nightrider

HOW DO I KNOW...........ASK YOUR PRIEST........HE KNOW HOW TO PLAY THAT GAME VERY WELL. HE CAN TEACH YOU HOW IT'S DONE..........AND ALL THE WINE AND BREAD IS FREE TOO

                              NIGHTRIDER

GTA has 220 million sq ft of commercial carpets according to my statistics

Interior Care, Servicemaster and Mainline can only handle a small portion of it, hit the road and sign up some contracts.

Want to know how many sq ft of commercial carpets in your area, send me $20.00 and your e-mail address and I will let you know. All I need is the population of your service area, it is that simple.

Yep loads of commercail work.... but a lot of places only clean once every five years like the U of T....

The last time they got the carpets cleaned the bill was 14.1 million for all the properties....

I know who you have to sleep with to get that contract.... but I'm male

I guess you onlu need one customer.  the rest of the time you can relax.

Everyone in the GTA if you want a complete list of ALL companies with carpet, plus sq. footage of each company........Plus every company who has had their carpets cleaned in the last 2 years, 1 year, 6 months, 3 months,and 1 month, ........plus a bonus of knowing what the invoice was billed out as..............and on top of all that I will supply any and all maintenence contracts that are comming to renewal...................ALL FOR FREE...........I like to help people, not take food off their table...........there's plenty of work out there, if we all have the same info, then the hard worker will profit and the lazy one will eat the scraps

                                NIGHTRIDER

I have contracts in Cornwall, Brockville, Kingston and Ottawa.........I'm getting anywhere from 8 to 12 cents commercial for carpets only..................the rest is all maintenance..........I should have something going in Toronto by July........looking for a small building there through Remax

                                    Nightrider

You're quick, Johnny on the spot today Dougy boy, That's a good one...................I gave that comment some thought and after some reflection, I think I'm going to call some of those customers and find out how things are going, Thanks for that insight doug

                           Nightrider

Hello,

What do you guys think of Encapsulation system for your comm.acct's? pros/cons?

pro's for me....

drying time

the word alone pumps on an extra 15 cents a sq ft(encapsulation)

cons...

have none

I've seen it in action on a video and was impressed with the results, but I find there are limitations as to how dirty of a carpet it will clean........Restaurant grease FORGET IT, heavely tracked down dirt in traffic areas, Not So Good Either although in general I think it's good to very good

                     Nightrider

Penny a sq ft per month is not bad.

200,000 sq ft office at a penny a sq ft=$2000.00 per month

Only about 20% is ever cleaned on any given month=40,000 sq ft

That equates to .05 cents a sq ft for a maintneance procedure, and that goes on for month after month, year after year, makes sense in my world.

Don is right again!

All hail Mr. MOTO!!!

Thanks, Dennis!

It wasn't really to be taken as a compliment.

I guess the MOTO moniker was a bit premature!

Oh well.

It is great Cleanex.... have you ever cleaned 200,000sq ft  it's not a baby boy job... and all the little complaints here and there.  2 grand for all that work.... not worth the man labour and headache.  that could take a few days even with truck mount.

I rather do 4 or 5 small commercial jobs at .20-.45 cents... less work... less headache

If you don't understand commercial maintenance contracts than it is hard to explain, nobody evers cleans the entire 200,000 sq ft at anyone given time, it is done on a preplanned cycle and the most that would ever be done any one month would be about 40,000 sq ft.

We have contracts MUCH larger than 200,000 sg ft and we love them, no problem. just steady case flow

Dennis I know it was not a compliment, but I was being nice and thanked you anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!    

nobody said they didn't understand maintenance contracts... I SAID IT IS NOT WORTH IT...

if you can't understand not worth it then its hard to explain, nobody ever cleans if it's not worth it..

a wand stroke is a wand stroke for me

I've been work with Service master a long damn time... I know what a maintenance contract is...

I sure love it when people talk to you like your stupid...

you said 2000 grand a month cleanex... that means your going to clean all in the month...

you said it not me... you didn't say 400 hundred bucks you said two GRAND for the month...

or maybe I DID NOT UNDERSTAND

Cleanex T thiught you were smarter than that, You have no clue about maintenance contracts, maybe theyjust give you push a mop to push around to keep out of everybodys way. Even @ 40,000 Sq Feet /month it takes man hours, plus chemicals, encapsulation brushes are only good for X amount of sq.feet before changing, your cost has to be min. 1.5 cents sq foot, plus, plus, plus and how about the other work you have to do on that contract....................what a dumb dumb

                              Nightrider

Oops.  What a dummy I am, all I can say is glad you guy's don't want to do it, leaves more for me! 

I guess it makes more sense to run all over town in a $50,000.00 truckunit doing a minimum charge job, tearing down, running to the next job, setting up doing another livingroom diningroom, than running off to the next job, same thing again, yep that's where the real money is, guess I better re-think my operation, and get out of that lucrative carpet appearance management business before I go bankrupt

That's right Steamer I said $2000.00, they charge an annual fee that works out to .12 cents a sq ft in this example, or .01 cent per month if you want to break it down.

The program has certain areas cleaned monthly others are cleaned 2, 3, or 4 times a year. Simply you bill it out in 12 equal installments and that works out .01 cent per sq. ft per month, and never ever do you clean all 200,000 sq ft in a month, or come close to that.

The one thing I know vs. you guys running all over hell doing small residential jobs is, I know exactly what it costs me to do my jobs, I know my gross and net profits from each job, I know how to schedule the work, I know a year in advance what needs to be done in each building. Simply put I don't fret over slow winter months, all months are the same to me. I am a happy carpet cleaner

LOL cleanex at least you took my rant with a grain of salt... I guess the message gets lost in translation...

It's not what you said it's how you said it... we all know about the break down... but most times YOU CLEAN IT ALL or at least do interm maintenance... deep steam 3 times a year and the rest of the time light bonnet...but some service has to be applied to ALL the carpet... even if it's spot cleaning

still a waste of time...... good thing you do it... I'll stick to my crap residential it pays the bills....

I don't have a crew like you.... so for me no good...

Cleanex....over 90% of all my work is maintenence contracts, I rarely do residential any more except for the odd promotional idea that I come up with for cash sales.................If you have maintenence contracts that total 2000,000 sq Ft. in any one company.......then that company should fire the superintendant in charge of cleaning contracts, why would it not be included in the regular maintenence of the building...........sounds very fishy to me.................It just doesn't pass the smell test

                                   Nightrider

not even net 15 less 2% works...lol

I'll make enough off the residential not to worry about the winter....

Thats one of my problems with commercial.... the long wait for money...

I also hate working evening nights and weekends... you can keep it...

while I'm fishing you'll be working

well cleanex has a work force so he'll be fishing too...

Its the poor Joe carpet cleaner like me that works for him that will be suffering...

I've been threw the Bull and I'll never go back.....

The one thing about commercial carpet maintenance work that one needs to do is. First you need to become a businessman, if you don't qualify than don't go to the next step.  

Why do facility managers prefer to have a professional business person look after their carpet investment?

It is very simple they tried the other route of letting the Janitorial Contractor do it and ended up with a very costly replacement bills long before the carpet needed replacement, with a  proper program we can double the life expectancey  of the carpet and save the facility mega bucks, and they love saving money

Yes Doug you are right on, commercial is not for everybody! 

Steamer, we operate a lot differently than the big three in GTA, my guys are paid by the hour, and not as subcontractors or associates what ever they call them, we supply all the equipment, detergents, trucks, all they need do is clean the carpets no matter how long it takes, they get paid.

Damn cleanex I'm going to use what you just said on my nice shiney communication piece...

Let me tell you what makes a business man... a shirt and tie a little flash and a good sized kick back...

lol cleanex you can't tell me anything I don't know.... 

as long as you're making money doing what you like to do and are having fun.......that's all that counts, those who like to call and be called a businessman is too high on themselves and probably live in some imaginary world of their own, I am in NO WAY a businessman......I am a HUSTLER converting corporate money to liquid cash and then.......the rest is yours to discouver

                              Nightrider

a HUSTLER bahahahahahah ahahahahahahaa....

your a comedian toooo bahahahahaha

Cleanex has forgotten more about carpet cleaning than  what most cleaners will ever know.

Long live the capret guru.

I always liked Don's motto----"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person"

Carpet Guru.........are all you people serious......what colour is the sky in your worlds........when was the last time you ever saw a documentory on carpets, or even a talk show featuring the foremost connoisseur on carpets............this is not a science people..............it's a plush RAG that we walk all over and get dirty with our sh*t encrusted shoes and dirty sweaty feet, then we clean it with either hot water, soap, a giant spinning diaper, shake it and beat it with a broom, then you Guru's like to put a title on it for doing that deed..............you're just a spit in the ocean compared to any other occupation, unemployed 6 months a year, and struggling the other 6 months......what a croc of sh*t you people like to serve to yourself

                          THE  NIGHTRIDER

Thanks for reminding me Lee, I am out of this posting because I'm starting to have that battle of wits with some unarmed people!

Oh gawd... here we go.  cleanex are you a chicken???? it's not a battle of wits we are just exchanging chatter... I'll will change my signiture to reflect who I am if it will make you happy.

does that make you happy....so now all the net junkies can look me up come to my house and punch me in the nose when I make comments that offend them....lol