OP Cleaning

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   John,
The problem with the chemical industry, as always is that we are very good at making up good stories about colloidal micelles, plant extracts and whatever else. Our customers don't understand any of this but it sure sounds good. All of this may be fine and good but you are missing my point. My point is very simple
The new science dictates that a portion of the cleaning chemicals we are all exposued to becomes part of your body burden. Cleaners, as well as their customers should have the right to know what they are expsoed to and what you are leaving behind. The MSD sheet you produce says and discloses nothing. In fact here in Canada it is illegal (as are most US products sold in this country.
The fact that your product meets these Gov't Executive orders is great. These are not science tests. They are criteria that a customer is looking for. Just like when i spec out a computer system and list what i want or don't want in it. I have no doubt your products work well - they must - you have happy customers
There is still no independent 3rd party verification on what you are claiming. Until you are prepared to show independent verification then I will stand by my statement
 As far as Green Seal is concerned, I agree with you. It is unfortunate that they charge  the same for all companies regardless of their size. It is far less expensive to get certified in Canads under the Environmental Choice Logo and it is equally less expensive to do the same in Europe under the Flower program. i would urge you contact www.environmentalchoice.ca to start your registration process.

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Jim Darling Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 29/January/2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 159	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jim Darling Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 8:16am
	John, The problem with the chemical industry, as always is that we are very good at making up good stories about colloidal micelles, plant extracts and whatever else. Our customers don't understand any of this but it sure sounds good. All of this may be fine and good but you are missing my point. My point is very simple The new science dictates that a portion of the cleaning chemicals we are all exposued to becomes part of your body burden. Cleaners, as well as their customers should have the right to know what they are expsoed to and what you are leaving behind. The MSD sheet you produce says and discloses nothing. In fact here in Canada it is illegal (as are most US products sold in this country. The fact that your product meets these Gov't Executive orders is great. These are not science tests. They are criteria that a customer is looking for. Just like when i spec out a computer system and list what i want or don't want in it. I have no doubt your products work well - they must - you have happy customers There is still no independent 3rd party verification on what you are claiming. Until you are prepared to show independent verification then I will stand by my statement As far as Green Seal is concerned, I agree with you. It is unfortunate that they charge the same for all companies regardless of their size. It is far less expensive to get certified in Canads under the Environmental Choice Logo and it is equally less expensive to do the same in Europe under the Flower program. i would urge you contact www.environmentalchoice.ca to start your registration process.
	Jim Darling

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PadMan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Dr. Low Moisture http://ccsop.com Joined: 11/March/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1032	Post Options Post Reply Quote PadMan Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 9:51am
	We are undergoing getting the "environmental choice" logo as we speak, that should be done soon, that is MUCH less expensive than having it done here. I understand being CAREFUL, but we have been and also have been in front at promoting SAFE, BIO-BASED products for carpet cleaners. � EPA rated as �Readily Biodegradable� (84.6% TOC in 28 days) o No expensive disposal required. Cleaner can be poured on the ground or down sewers o No known EPA or OSHA red flags. Use it without fear of regulatory problems. o Certified as a Clean Air Solvent by the State of California (CAS) o Complies with Executive Orders 12873, 13101 and 13134 (Environmentally preferable purchasing) � Proven Effective by o Achieving 105% efficiency against Federal Cleaning Efficiency Standards o Hoosier State Elementary, Fowler, Indiana o Indiana and Idaho State Prison Systems for effectiveness and inmate safety o AEG Environmental for decontamination of the U.S. Justice Department. (The only decontamination project that proved 100% successful on the first attempt) o Pendleton Marine Station Motor Pool Supervisor. o Numerous janitorial professionals, commercial businesses and professional carpet cleaners � Certified Minority Business Enterprise o Complies with Executive Order 13169 & 13170 (Diversity Outreach) Special Recognition � Selected as �Ecological Cleaner of Choice� by the U.S. Navy Environmental Health Center. Of 300+ cleaning and degreasing products considered, only ten products were accepted for inclusion in the U.S. Navy Procurement Catalogue.
	Converting HWE customer to VLM customers for 30 Years!

Jim Darling Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 29/January/2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 159	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jim Darling Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 10:04am
	John Glad you are starting the process. There are new standards coming out in Canada. There is CCD-148 and CCD 146. One is specific for carpet products. (Sorry I can't remember which one is which). Make sure you get registered for the right one.
	Jim Darling

LilNiteRidrhood Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Master Carpet Cleaner Joined: 17/March/2004 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 1257	Post Options Post Reply Quote LilNiteRidrhood Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 11:11am
	John forgive my cynicism but after studying MSDS for the last couple of years and regularly seeing the words "trade secret" on the U.S. MSDS I have to stand up for Jim. Give you an example, I have an MSDS of a popular encapsulator in front of me with the ingredient Sodium Lauryl sulfate stating it has no CAS number assigned. Horsefeathers!! The attitude of "trust me" from the U.S. manufacturers is infuriating. Jim is just saying, if you are going to state something in your promotions, prove it.

PadMan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Dr. Low Moisture http://ccsop.com Joined: 11/March/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1032	Post Options Post Reply Quote PadMan Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 11:21am
	Trade secrets ARE important, YES it is imperative we get the "safety issue" clearly documented, but giving out trade secrets will NOT be part of the plan. The chemical industry it way too competitive to give ANYTHING out freely.
	Converting HWE customer to VLM customers for 30 Years!

Jim Darling Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 29/January/2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 159	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jim Darling Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 12:27pm
	John, Giving out trade secrets is not part of anyone's plan. Following the law, in my opinion should be. As I understand the laws in the US if you wish to sell your product in NY, PA or NJ you must list the top 5 ingredients on the label. An exemption is possible in each State as long as you have registered your product with that State's Department of Health. If you have not done that, i suggest you do. When any Company does any business in another country, they have to follow the laws of that country. Our federal Government publishes a long list of chemicals that there are concerns with. If any Canadian manufacturer includes any of these chemicals in their product in a percentage greater than 1% then they must be listed under the hazardous ingredients. Failure to do so or get caught only results in a "very bad day" for that Company. Our Company currently manufactures products under private label for a well known US Company. I follow all of the laws that i have to Though you are not alone by a long shot in hiding information, I hope you don't get caught by our WHMIS police. It will then be a "bad day." Speaking as a manufacturer, there are no "trade secrets" We are all buying the same stuff from the same people. If I really want to find something out, I have access to a host of resources that will tell me anything I want to know. So lets all follow the laws
	Jim Darling

MR. STEAMER Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List True Patriot Only in the GTA Joined: 03/March/2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 14549	Post Options Post Reply Quote MR. STEAMER Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 4:09pm
	I've been down this road before... there are toooooo many trade secrets, things that should be disclosed to the users of the product... we need stiffer regulation when it comes the the ingredients on the side of the bottle... 100% disclosure
	www.mr-steamer.com

cleanex Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Carpet Cleaning Specialist Joined: 17/October/2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 705	Post Options Post Reply Quote cleanex Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 5:58pm
	This is good stuff
	DON ELDRED YOU CAN "STAND" ON OUR REPUTATION

PadMan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Dr. Low Moisture http://ccsop.com Joined: 11/March/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1032	Post Options Post Reply Quote PadMan Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 6:03pm
	Many of us have the same BASE products, however unless you are just a private labeler, that statement about all having the same chems is false.
	Converting HWE customer to VLM customers for 30 Years!

cleanex Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Carpet Cleaning Specialist Joined: 17/October/2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 705	Post Options Post Reply Quote cleanex Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 7:18pm
	What about all the stuff sold in retail stores, a lot of it is more dangerous than most the stuff we use. No MSDS sheets with it, NOTHING.
	DON ELDRED YOU CAN "STAND" ON OUR REPUTATION

PadMan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Dr. Low Moisture http://ccsop.com Joined: 11/March/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1032	Post Options Post Reply Quote PadMan Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 7:44pm
	I think Ted, KNOWS what we have is safe, but wants us to have the clairfication of Canadian registration.
	Converting HWE customer to VLM customers for 30 Years!

LilNiteRidrhood Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Master Carpet Cleaner Joined: 17/March/2004 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 1257	Post Options Post Reply Quote LilNiteRidrhood Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 10:20pm
	John, plain and simple, we can't sell Abstraction in Canada without WHMIS labels and Canadian MSDS. The ironic part of all this is-- should Abstraction be so clean and safe that it contains no ingredients on the Ingredient Disclosure List and ends up not being WHMIS regulated, you would truly have the last laugh!! That would actually be real cool, cause then we would be able to buy Abstraction again. (Unless I am on your bad list now).

PadMan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Dr. Low Moisture http://ccsop.com Joined: 11/March/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1032	Post Options Post Reply Quote PadMan Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05/November/2004 at 10:40pm
	You are not on my bad list, man you are fighting for what you believe in and so are we, however you probably will find it does NOT have anything that has to be on the Disclosure List. But I will let you know as time passes. Hey safety is important for this industry and well WORTH fighting for.
	Converting HWE customer to VLM customers for 30 Years!

MR. STEAMER Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List True Patriot Only in the GTA Joined: 03/March/2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 14549	Post Options Post Reply Quote MR. STEAMER Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07/November/2004 at 11:01am
	How does the OP work on carpet that is 80 oz and up??? can it still dig and be able to clean all sides of the fibre?? Just wondering...nothing else
	www.mr-steamer.com

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